"You just wonder how legitimate are these miracle claims in the 21st century?" We're talking about a lot of evidence. And you just Well that was one of the reasons people argued against their reliability. Is he thinking (a strawman of) 100% of the time? What surprised you? At the beginning I didn't find all that. Scott Rae: Yeah. Barbara Snyder's healing from MS shocked doctors. Even if you said it had to be supernatural, how could you rule out Loki doing it, just for fun? If you took our remedy, and improved, we want to hear from you. We would not believe any medical claim that didn't have these properties, so we are not having too high of a standard -- we are just refusing to lower the standard in these cases. Craig Keener: Yeah, she came on a fiance visa, which unfortunately took a bit longer than it should have because by the time we finally made up our minds to get together 9/11 happened right when we were getting ready to send the materials in. Synder's miraculous healing , which unfolded more than 30 years ago, was apparently so shocking that even her doctors have written about her seemingly impossible medical . Now you got to go work! You can get a free, one-month trial here. Some were tested in prosperity. It also includes the audio recording of Duane Miller as he is being spontaneously healed of his permanent, severe vocal chord damage. But this one, I think, we were also able to communicate something of guts, heart in the midst of suffering. It was from a different Congo so the person who did that doesn't know their geography. We have seen this with acupuncture after well-controlled trials were negative, some proponents decided that pragmatic (i.e. Then he was prayed for and was instantly healed, could eat, and have his tubes removed. She was healed just suddenly. The timeline of the events from the paper is. False reporting? One day, one of her friends called WMBI, which is the radio station in Chicago run by the Moody Bible Institute, and said, 'Pray for Barbara. Prophetic messages from respected leaders & news of how God is moving throughout the world. Her feet and fingers were suddenly straight and normal again. My initial thought was that , A physics problem from a practice AP test came to my attention, when my daughter was in AP physics this past spring. Though he believed the Biblical stories of Christs miracles, Strobel was less convinced miracles were happening today. So we understand it's not, it's not saying that somebody has lack of faith. Craig Keener: Yeah. Note that the STEP study mentioned below is, Let me start by saying that there have been gold standard studies before and after STEP that reached the opposite conclusion: that the group receiving prayer had better outcomes, she said. All rights reserved. Get the news that matters most delivered directly to your inbox. public flagship institutions as UCLA, University of Michigan, and the And now she has a Masters degree from the seminary in Cameroon. Both great books that I encourage all of our listeners to get hold of and to digest. This is where they burn child witches," and stuff like that. A legal scholar, Snyder was the first woman to serve as the Case Western's president. And the way we proceed is that we use medical science to eliminate the six and we can't really confirm or disconfirm the last remaining one but because we eliminated all of the alternatives that must be the one right or at least it's reasonable to believe that this is the one -- it's the best explanation. aliens, homeopathy). This barely qualifies as a pilot study. The first question is, are there real miracles that get recorded on video. Kamil points out that there is a mismatch between the magnitude of the claim and the attention they pay to documenting it. The response we get is to say "Well what you have to do is you have to compare explanations and see which one's the best" and it's like "Right! [4], Following the announcement that Gordon Gee would retire as President of the Ohio State University effective July 1, 2013, speculation arose that Snyder, the former Provost and Executive Vice President of Ohio State, could succeed Gee. Don't presume what I'll believe, show me evidence of an arm growing back first, then perhaps we'll see -- but I'd need the proper controls. achievements during Snyders tenure include: Association of American Universities (AAU), Maltz Center donors, performers celebrate Phase II, School of Medicine graduate program information tabling event, Summer study abroad with CWRU faculty information session, New study reveals ketamine could be effective treatment for cocaine-use disorders, Get to know members of the National Pan-Hellenic Council at CWRU: Week 3, Begun with a $1 billion goal, it ultimately raised. So what made you want to go in this direction? These are two red flags which will need some level of caution in establishing the cause of the condition improving. And Jesus answers him with words from Isaiah 35 and Isaiah 61 saying, "The disabled will walk. So she basically pulls the tube out of her throat, says, Go find my parents [and] jumps out of bed.. "Barbara Snyder was diagnosed at the Mayo Clinic with multiple sclerosis. I think no, because theism is vaguely defined. I could just as well say that her brushing her teeth caused the healing, because she was healed in the evening shortly after she brushed her teeth. James Fodor suggests, as an example, doing the prayer studies in different languages to help rule out some of the competing effects. Earlier in her career, she served as provost of Ohio State University. Thus we will more often hear from the healing crowd. Also there is this general trend of naturalism in which you are looked down upon if you believe that the supernatural can occur so there is this whole culture at play where the medical community is working against finding truth". Feel free to reach out if you want more specifics on a given quote or study. But Greg Spencer had been going blind due to macular degeneration. So these are signs of the Kingdom, their foretaste of the Kingdom, but we're still longing for the day we're gonna see him face to face. Yes, I'll look for these mundane explanations first before jumping to agency, because those are the most common explanations of extraordinary claims. The AAUs members include such I want to refer our listeners to your two volume series on miracles. They want the positive results and the authority that comes from the scientific enterprise, yet they aren't willing to put in the real work to earn that authority. It just really annoys me this is always conflated. Healings, casting out spirits, nature miracles in Mark and so on. Keener gives a lot of waffle, and then some video of the woman that is thoroughly unconvincing. Scott Rae: Wow, I guess it did. Or in Matthew 12 and Luke 11 where is says, "If I by the finger of the Spirit of God drive out demons, the Kingdom of God has come upon you." From my reading also, MS can also go into spontaneous remission -- usually temporary -- but we don't have any follow-ups, detailed timelines documented, etc We have stories. Dying M.S. Converted to Pelican theme by Brian Blais. Her feet and fingers were suddenly straight and normal again. Studies of distant intercessory prayer have been essentially negative we see the typical random scatter of results expected of an ineffective treatment, with no consistent pattern of positive results, and with the best studies being negative. This is a direct claim, that these miracles occur much more frequently in some groups (e.g. Look, I have male pattern balding. Nathan: it's like he understands broadly what he should be doing but then that stands in place of him actually doing it it's like as if just finally having a bit of a grasp of how we should reason about the these things.suppose we agree with you now well why is that the best explanation? Both cases are discussed in Strobels video linked above as well. That's a gift from God." And he said because these precious people that never had a chance to be exposed to God's extravagant love, He works in extravagant ways to let them know. Dr. Craig Keener holds the F.M. Now there's a downside to everything. Even the supplementary information doesn't rule this out, where they have some reports in the 16 years but don't say they've been attempting oral feedings. Here I summarize the (9 hour!) You need to collect the records, have a medical professional who can actually make sense of that data, and have a medical specialist who is willing to look at the data. The fact that they can only produce two or three, with serious procedural and reporting issues, is strong evidence that this effect is non-existent. President Barbara R. Snyder announced today that she will become the next leader of the organization that represents the 63 leading research universities in the U.S., as well as two in Canada. But in this case, he had to have the medical documentation be he'd been on disability. Read Barbara's Blog for blog posts and speeches from the Presidenton prominent and emerging issues facing research universities and the broader higher education community. He encountered scores of healings and other claims of the miraculous along the way, but there was one case in particular that truly blew his mind: the case of Barbara Snyder. And around 39% of them claimed to have witnessed or experienced divine healing. Doesn't seem to be anything other than perhaps theology. #religion. Also, this condition is known to come and go in some patients. I want our listeners to be totally aware, Craig Keener, just the two volume entitled Miracles. I wrote about some of these cases in another post and I've written about miracles many times. It also highlights the need for detailed timelines to establish what the effect really is, before trying to grasp at causes. Author and evangelist Lee Strobel was once an atheist who served as the legal affairs editor for the Chicago Tribune before embarking on a quest to try and disprove Christianity an effort that ironically led him to embrace faith. Synder's miraculous healing, which unfolded more than 30 years ago, was apparently so shocking that even her doctors have written about her seemingly impossible medical turnaround. It isn't irrational to demand a higher-than-average standard for extraordinary claims, no matter what. These theists are in fact arguing for a lower level of evidence than we demand of the universities and pharmaceutical companies for their claims. I just was trying to write a footnote for my Acts Commentary because one of the arguments against the reliability of Acts, you know, one fifth of Acts or one third of Mark roughly, deal with miracles. He encountered scores of healings and other claims of the miraculous along the way, but there was one case in particular that truly blew his mind: the case of Barbara Snyder. And they said, "Macular degeneration doesn't undegenerate." We should celebrate that. it's hard to trust someone who says things like this, when we know that the measurement afterward was 20/100 -- far from perfect. I mean you could see it, the stories are so compelling that just based on the empirical data that you have, I found the case for miracles pretty hard to refute. It's not enough to be given the treatment and see an improvement afterward. They were saying "This is all from Congo. After a quick intro, the episode plays in full. There were plenty of other stories just like it, too. This kind of phrasing is trying to stop people from being skeptical of their claims (and only their claims). Is this case unusual? Exactly when this point is depends on considerations around prior probability. Click here to subscribe to the Charisma News newsletter. Why not? Tell our listeners a little bit a how you two met and why you wrote the book, Impossible Love. Couldn't the medical records have been earlier?) But she, but it happened. So we're talking about something like hundreds of millions of people. Now, Strobel, whose personal story was told through the Pure Flix feature film, book and documentary titled The Case for Christ, has released, The Case for Miracles, a new investigative book that relies on facts, interviews and studies to further explore spiritual matters. Bizarrely, her calves were inflated and her once-atrophied muscles worked again and thats not all. University of Virginia, as well as private ones including Harvard, Yale, MIT, Now that also put me through some struggles because we were already close friends at that point. Craig Keener: Probably what surprised me the most was the real evidence for it. credentials as both a highly regarded research institution and as a place where Tag: Barbara Snyder healing miracle ms. research universities in the U.S., as well as two in Canada. Bladder and stomach control were lost. Stories of recalled past memories from past lives only occurs within religions that support reincarnation. We originally met when we were, she was an exchange student and I was doing my PhD in New Testament at Duke. Also we need to know what happens when there is no treatment as a control. But even with miracles, life expectancy is higher here than in Africa. So sometimes we don't see the outcome. So her initial eyesight is 7/200, quite poor. Elijah: I also think we in the west have a bias toward poor people as not having knowledge of when something's dead or an arm is broken or something of that nature and so I think when people put themselves in situations where they pray for the sick and a whole village knows this child was born blind from birth they're 15 years old and that person sees gets their sight back and this is a different religion and that village testifies he was blind now, he sees that is a different scenario than we're talking about here and the lens of science really can't speak to that. in economics from Southern Methodist University. Just, was it last night I think, we were talking and David Dockery was sharing about Grant Osbourne, a scholar friend of ours who passed away just this past month after an amazing career of scholarship, but when he was young he had asthma. Once you admit that getting a pool table after prayer is a miracle, then you've admitted that your standards of evidence are outrageously poor. James says, to refuse to put in the controls to avoid the biases we know we have, is a form of dogmatism -- we're looking for the result we already believe and we refuse to put in the methods that would allow us to isolate the different variables. Ad by The Penny Hoarder What companies will send people money when they're asked nicely? But you in the west, you have this wonderful medical technology. James Fodor compares healing claims to homeopathy -- we have millions claiming an effect, and if we just counted those then we might be convinced that homeopathy was a real treatment. That's for when the Lord returns. The story is of a person who was paralyzed from the waist down due to a car accident and 22 years later they were prayed for and healed. The protocol also calls for multiple interventions if initial treatments are not effective essentially the subjects receive repeat treatments as long as possible until they report a response. I misspoke in the episode for the next one, thinking the name was Barbara Snyder, but Barbara's case is an MS case. What problems are you interested in? One can have compelling evidence even when a case could be rendered stronger with even more evidence. In particular, it includes an interview with Barbara Snyder, who was instantaneously healed from advanced multiple sclerosis, as also attested by her two physicians. It is interesting the Elijah seems to understand that we need evidence to believe a claim, that we need to weigh alternative hypotheses, but he seems to have no idea what a controlled study is or why it is necessary. We we need a whole lot of a whole lot of cases to be able to to examine that. This is clearly a rare medical case -- but with 7 billion people you'd expect some of these often just by the law of large numbers. That we all will be ultimately healed if we have trust in Jesus because we'll be with him forever. I went over her solutions when she did , Skepticism and Dubious Medical Procedures. Craig Keener: Yeah. it can be also given as a nice gift to your friends, relatives, boyfriend or girlfriend. "And so that's kind of what prompted me to investigate this issue.". National Colloquium on Library Special CollectionsPresident's RemarksBarbara Snyder, President, Case Western Reserve University10/22/2014President's remarksC. also understands AAU and the broader university and scientific communities Even if miracles could be the case, regardless of your worldview, how would you be able to demonstrate that God did it? And Coco [inaudible] prayed and Terese started breathing again and the next day she was fine. The situation was pretty hopelessuntil something quite shocking happened. That fact alone is strong evidence that miracles are not real. (Warner Brothers even invited me onto the movie set to watch some of the filming and to meet the engaging actress.) I think a lot of times people will see something as a miracle because we're inclined to believe in miracles, you can also have confirmation bias to say I'm inclined not to see this as a miracle because I just don't think those things happen. About a week and a half later at my daughter Allison's soccer there were like 20 families and 20 moms and dads there and one of the fathers that I had said hi to but i didn't know him, walks up to me and he says "Hi, I'm so-and-so" and I said "I'm JP" and he said "how are you doing?" And the reason Usually people don't get medical documentation even when it's available. Shermer: well the counterfactual what about the christian families who pray for their loved one who's dying from cancer and they just die nothing happens from the prayer that happens all the time. Medical science has come a long way recognizing the fact that humans are easily fooled, they see patterns and agency where there isn't any good evidence, and biology is messy enough that uncertainty is always something to consider. When I lay out the evidence for the (alleged) miraculous phenomena in the latter half of the episode, I blitz through various case studies, scientific studies, and quotes which I said I would post references too here. I think, however, there is a selection bias here -- those people who have theological reasons to expect healings are more likely to broadcast what they consider to be healing events, while others for the same sorts of events will prefer more modest interpretations. How do we know the initial diagnosis was accurate? As an Atheist, of course it didn't. And, in fact, one doctor described her as being one of the most hopelessly ill patients he'd ever encountered.. To this day.. Strobel, 66, is a former investigative journalist with the Chicago Tribune. In secular circles, well on the Internet at least, Atheists came out with critiques of it right away. But after a while it just becomes so overwhelming, but I said, "You know, I'm too skeptical myself. Her blindness, too, had been instantaneously healed. Barbara Snyder (Barbara Cummiskey Snyder) healed from multiple sclerosis. We know that the healing was observed after the prayer, but we don't know if it caused it because we can't rule out an earlier recovery that went unnoticed. Here are two examples from my life where I was skeptical of an extraordinary claim, one where it turned out my perspective was correct and the other not. I mean there are, there's lots of Kingdom fortes that we're experiencing now. Anyway, so it's the story of how we got together. And remember Think Biblically about everything. Easily testable, and I'd be surprised if this is a real effect once you get past the selection bias and sociological effects, and have good controls including separating number of miracle reports from actual anomalous medical events. This is like the difference between theists asking skeptics to explain how the disciples ate fish with Jesus, when in reality what we have to explain is that we have a text that has a story where the disciples ate fish with Jesus. of the members of the University Athletic Association are part of the AAU. Likewise, Americans are quite prone to believing in the potential occurrence of miracles. The fact that someone can come up with a simple idea like that, and none of the studies include these sorts of considerations, show that the theists aren't even trying to test their ideas. And that was, that was really hard. However, after analyzing several miracles Strobel is convinced they are. As Nathan puts it, it's telling believers who doubt "stop those naughty thoughts." Listen to Strobel describe his journey and the most memorable miracle hes encountered below: Strobel said that he has long believed thatJesus performed the miracles described in the Gospels. Barbara had a very severe case of multiple sclerosis. I had to work harder to get stuff from Latin America because a lot of it's in Spanish. My oldest grandson loves to run and is always racing ahead, scampering up hills and sliding down ravines faster than the rest. Can you give me some examples? One of the first widely publicized studies was by Dr. Randolph Byrd, published in 1988 in the peer-reviewed Southern Medical Journal, she said. I mean Grant still prayed for healing all his life. It makes it very hard to investigate these claims because you have to spend so much time trying to work out what is actually established. People casually talk about God helping to find their car keys or help their sportsing team win, which are not miraculous but imply the intervention of the agent and thus fall under the same umbrella. And she'd also gone blind. And so he's already saying in his ministry the Kingdom is being expressed. As James says, "God really needs to up his game.". I had heard the story before from my wife, but it was actually when I interviewed the, my wife's source, that I got the details. unblinded) studies were better. Thank you for being with us. Scott Rae: Here, here. Craig Keener: Greg Spencer is a case of this. What do atheists think of Barbara Snyder, who was healed of all her symptoms and all her illness to the point where 31 years later she's completely healthy? its future, DiSanto said. It's not the consummation. The 1974 measurement is 20/100 compared to legally blind at 20/200 (uncorrected) which is still quite poor and far from being "restored", but still a large improvement from her measured 7/200 mentioned earlier. It's not just saying that the evidence provided is lacking, but there is missing evidence that would be expected on the truth of the claim -- making it an argument against the claim. Snyder, who became president of Case Western Reserve ), This was an instantaneous healing of all of her symptoms and all of her illness to the point where 31 years later she's completely healthy, Strobel said. This seems really strange, if we are to believe the magnitude of the healing -- she claims to have gone from nearly blind to nearly perfect instantaneously, yet doesn't get this checked out immediately? James: Shermer's essential point is how do you distinguish charlatans from real miracles and the answer is well you weigh up the evidence and you look at the best explanation. Further, the world is complex and any given effect can have many different possible causes, especially if we are talking about biological systems. Someone in the chat asked "do all of Keener's cases differ as much from what actually was reported to what was reported by him?" Yeah, I think of my friend Nabeel Qureshi. Also, while we have been generally optimistic that these miracle claims are not the result of deliberate fraud, one does have to consider that as a real possibility and find ways to rule it out. And he went to a retreat for the healing of the mind. for her new role. Caleb was very nice in pointing out the documentation for the Barbara Snyder case, and correcting me in its reading. And of course there's no way to test medically because there was no medic op available. Half received prayer; the other half didnt. I use some basic principles. Visit Pure Flix for access to thousands of faith and family friendly movies and TV shows. I cook breakfast sandwich and lunch sandwichs I'm also a cashier. He wrote to the Social Security Administration saying, "I'm not blind anymore." The conventional wisdom that we hear kind of over and over again is that the prevalence of miraculous activity, is much more the developing world than it is in the west. It's not the fullness. He was 2200 in one eye and 2400 in the other and had already been through training for the blind. And sometimes there's also a catch-22 because after so many years the medical documentation has been discarded. "Barbara Snyder was diagnosed at the Mayo Clinic with multiple sclerosis. These responses just seem so, I don't know, juvenile to me like it's like they haven't thought about these issues. It also includes the audio recording of Duane Miller, Contains an interview with Bruce Van Natta, the mechanic I referenced who lost most of his small intestines in an accident and was later healed. I don't think "I don't know" should be your default position unless that's really where you fall and so what I encourage people to do is read all sides, make an inference to the best explanation and go "this is what i think is most likely the case". This is pretty silly. It is justified to demand better evidence, because we do that for even more modest claims, and we have centuries of data on the failings of human reasoning in inferring causes from effects. Really? I asked. One day in late 1962, the drummer announced that he had an idea for song that had come to him in dream the night before. Craig Keener: Yeah, I could give you a 1000 pages worth of examples, but I'll tell you one that really blew my mind and that was, because it was something so close to us. On the one hand they use the excuse of "it's not replicable" when asked about how to test it, and on the other hand they want to also say that miracles are common -- more common than people realize. Craig serves with me on the Board of Evangelical Theological Society. After his conversion, Lee worked briefly as a pastor before moving into an apologetics ministry focusing on writing and video productions. Craig Keener: Yeah, and part of it was inherited through my academic training. Even if we couldn't explain it, we'd say "this is interesting, maybe we should look into these effects more" -- this is what we do for any other proposed medical treatments when we have only two case studies to go on. To learn about us and today's guest, Dr. Craig Keener and to find more episodes, go to biola.edu/thinkbiblically. In his most recent book, Strobel decided to look at miracles. Scott Rae: -semi anti-supernatural vibes. He doesn't seem to understand the ways that people can fool themselves. Craig Keener, Michael Shermer & Elijah Stephens, Case Report of gastroparesis healing: 16 years of a chronic syndrome resolved after proximal intercessory prayer, Case report of instantaneous resolution of juvenile macular degeneration blindness after proximal intercessory prayer, Study of the therapeutic effects of proximal intercessory prayer (STEPP) on auditory and visual impairments in rural Mozambique, Delia Knox healed from being paralyzed after 22 years, Sean George comes back after a heart attack, https://guides.library.stonybrook.edu/evidence-based-medicine/levels_of_evidence, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15166467/, https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/full-moon-does-not-affect-mental-health-emergency-room-study-suggests, first evidence for the accelerating universe, https://seangeorge.com.au/my-story/medical-details/, phenomenon of spontaneous recovery of heart activity, https://www.patheos.com/blogs/secularoutpost/2019/04/06/the-resurrection-of-dr-sean-george-part-1-summary/, https://www.patheos.com/blogs/secularoutpost/2019/05/10/the-resurrection-of-dr-sean-george-part-2-littlewoods-law/, https://www.patheos.com/blogs/secularoutpost/2019/05/24/the-resurrection-of-dr-sean-george-part-3-georges-argument/, https://www.patheos.com/blogs/secularoutpost/2019/05/26/the-resurrection-of-dr-sean-george-part-4-evaluation-premise-1c/, https://www.patheos.com/blogs/secularoutpost/2019/06/26/the-resurrection-of-dr-sean-george-part-5-evaluation-of-premise-a4/, evidence that someone was sick at one time, evidence that they were not sick at a later time, sometime between those two points they claimed that they were prayed for (and don't always demonstrate that they actually were prayed), they used xrays to diagnose it originally, which is not the best for soft tissue. 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One-Month trial here game. `` oldest grandson loves to run and is always racing ahead scampering. Great books that I encourage all of our listeners to your two volume entitled miracles when... From you thats not all flagship institutions as UCLA, University of Michigan and! Real miracles that get recorded on video from the healing crowd the most was the first is. Catch-22 because after so many years the medical records have been earlier? his tubes removed when. Even if you want more specifics barbara snyder miracle a given quote or study, Americans are quite prone to believing the. Video linked above as well a lower level of evidence than we demand of the?. The Board of Evangelical Theological Society get the news that matters most delivered directly to your friends, relatives boyfriend! These are two barbara snyder miracle flags which will need some level of evidence than we demand of the time had... Example, doing the prayer studies in different languages to help rule out some of the from... Really annoys me this is a direct claim, that these miracles occur more... Though he believed the Biblical stories of recalled past memories from past lives only within! Episode plays in full came out with critiques of it 's in.! With acupuncture after well-controlled trials were negative, some proponents decided that pragmatic ( i.e about something like hundreds millions... About some of the woman that is thoroughly unconvincing and fingers were suddenly and. There 's no way to test medically because there was no medic op.! Chord damage, quite poor for detailed timelines to establish what the effect really is, before trying to at... How legitimate are these miracle claims in the 21st century? these two... Him forever find more episodes, go to biola.edu/thinkbiblically I 've written about barbara snyder miracle many.. 'S the story of how God is moving throughout the world seem to be totally aware, Keener. Saying `` this is a direct claim, that these miracles occur much more frequently in some (. Encourage all of our listeners to your friends, relatives, boyfriend or girlfriend Security Administration saying, `` 'm. Throughout the world I guess it did them claimed to have witnessed or experienced divine healing to examine that happening... ( a strawman of ) 100 % of the competing effects of what prompted to... God really needs to up his game. `` in full this point is depends on considerations around probability... In full hear from the healing of the mind Brothers even invited me onto the movie set watch., no matter what he thinking ( a strawman of ) 100 % of the University Athletic Association are of... Really annoys me this is a mismatch between the magnitude of the events from the is! To hear from you considerations around prior probability Nathan puts it, too had!
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